From Consistent Life:
"We are committed to the protection of life, which is threatened in today's world by war, abortion, poverty, racism, capital punishment and euthanasia. We believe that these issues are linked under a 'consistent ethic of life'. We challenge those working on all or some of these issues to maintain a cooperative spirit of peace, reconciliation, and respect in protecting the unprotected...We serve the anti-violence community by connecting issues, building bridges, and strengthening the case against each kind of socially-approved killing by consistently opposing them all."
Amen.
Daily Mass Readings
Hebrews 9:17,24-28
Psalm 98:1-6
Mark 3:22-30
Elijah who will return to prepare the way for Christ's second Coming killed 450 prophets of Baal with the sword. Was he pro life? Christ praised the centurion as having more faith than he had found in all Israel. Was the centurion pro life while in charge of 101 swords? The 1992 catechism supported the death penalty and described the state's right to use it as "well founded". Then Pope John Paul II without ever citing Romans 13:4 or Gen. 9:6's death penalty command led millions of unread People to believe that God's exemption of Cain from being killed was iconic for us. But had that been the case, God would have blocked Romans 13:4 from being written....and He would have blocked Gen.9:6 which postdated Cain. Cain should not have been executed because private people should not execute. The first king and government appear later than Cain in Genesis 10:8....Nimrod. Ergo....the death penalty of Gn.9:6 appears with him and is given by God. John Paul quoted around Gn.9:6 but never showed the reader in EV....the death penalty part of the quote.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment, nannon. I'm not quite understanding your point, though. The death penalty is a gift from God? Ought we adhere to all the prohibitions in Leviticus because they are "biblical"? As far as the death penalty goes, I defer to the wisdom of my Church. Society doesn't have the right to vengeance. Society has a right to defend itself and to punish...but it does not morally possess a right to kill
ReplyDeleteUnthinking obedience would have had you cooperate with Pope Innocent IV and Leo X in burning heretics in 1252AD and in 1520 AD respectively.
ReplyDeleteThe 1992 catechism which more Catholics probably have in their home than the 1997 version disagrees with you on the death penalty....and John Paul and Benedict approved both the 1992 and the 1997 versions...but here is 1992:
"The traditional teaching of the church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty."
No mention of it being rarely needed. That came from one man, John Paul II as a prudential judgement in Evangelium Vitae (1995) that was then placed in the 1997 catechism. But prudential judgements since they are time and place dependent.....should not be in catechism articles. Life sentences secondly are not modern which John Paul II implied they were. They do seem to work in small heterogenous countries like Scandinavia. They demonstrably are a cause of further murders within prison in large heterogenous countries like the US where gang members who murder within prison.....lose nothing further if they are in non death penalty states as we see often in the MSNBC series weekly. George Weigel in "Witness to Hope" stated that John Paul II did not read newspapers. I think one should if one is going to generalize about modern life sentences. They work in some countries and not others. Go to wiki's list of the murder rates by country. In the top 20 worst countries is 9 that A.) do not have the death penalty and B.) are predominant Catholic. John Paul II obviously did not know that his own countries with no death penalty were half of the worst countries in the world as to safety from murder.
On Scripture and your comment on Leviticus, Genesis 9:6 is addressed to all nations and was not a Jewish law like those of Leviticus which Jewish only laws are now void as to the death penalty like the woman Christ protected in John. Christ ended those death penalties for personal sin because He brought sanctifying grace to replace great physical threats as to personal sins. But that has zero to do with Genesis 9:6 which is not Jews only.....and its giving the state custody of the death penalty is repeated in the New Testament in Romans 13:4
in the synecdoche of the word "sword".... where " flagrum" could have been used had God meant to exclude death.
Thank you for your continued comments. I am a bit confounded why you've decided to loose your tirade here, but let's mush on...
ReplyDeleteAnyone who actually knows me, including my atheist friends, know that I have not come to my religious faith lightly...a cursory glance at many of the past posts of this blog will attest to that as well. I do not give my obedience unreasonably nor irrationally. To suggest I would have accepted the burning of heretics, simply because "the Pope says you gotta" is simply wrong.
Be that as it may, I'll trust the Holy Fathers' ideas of what is pertinent to be included/excluded from the CCC, rather than what you think belongs in catehism article.
As for Genesis and Romans "giving the state custody over the death penalty" does that include immoral states? Corrupted states? Racist states? Genocidal states? And, since Rome was the power behind most European nations in the late Middle Ages, would it be biblically sound to support the burning of heretics by what was essentially the state?
Finally, "in cases of extreme gravity" applies when there is no other way for the state to protect itself. Can you think of an instance, especially in this country, where there is no other reasonable way to keep a criminal from harming another except to kill him?
I enjoy the conversation, but do tone it down a couple of notches if you would, nannon? Thanks.
Your site had limitations and refused a long answer. Adieu. I grew up in gang territory. Some murderers want life sentences.....that's why they plead to get them: no unemployment, free medical and free dental, three meals a day and only part time work if that in most places. Read about the sloth in the Proverbial books. Lifers murdered Fr. Geogham, Jeffrey Dahmer in prison in states with no death penalty. Work for its elimination and you are possibly helping a murder in prison.
ReplyDeleteRomans 13:4 gives the state the right to execute in the NT nd it was written in the context of the Roman empire hich cannot kill willy nilly....but proved murderers. Here it is: 3-6. 3
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
4
for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
5
Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.
6
Nannon,
ReplyDeleteAdieu to you too. This conversation is obviously not going anywhere.
I don't intend to get into a proverbial "spitting contest" on my own blog. If you'd like to claim "victory", by all means, do. Further posts from you on this subject in this tone will be deleted. This not a debate forum and never has been.
From womb to tomb, conception to natural death, all life is sacred. Period.
Blessings,
T